Subject : Frequency compression/shifting technology. Opinions?
posted by alienxg7 on Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:25 pm
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Hi all!
I would like to hear from people who have tried the frequency compression/shifting technology (names differ from product to product).
The Sonovation products (Nano XP, ImpaCt XP, etc.) and Widex Inteo are aids that feature this technology - perhaps variants of it.
My personal opinion: I have never tried these products so I don't have a personal opinion. However, I feel they would help people with voiceless as well as voiced sounds in areas of the cochlear where amplification is not enough. After adapting to the new sounds (in lower frequencies), the technology could help with one's own speech and speech understanding.
I would love to hear what people think of this so I could assess whether the technology is useful.
Thanks!
Patrick
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Subject : Re: Frequency compression/shifting technology. Opinions?
posted by alienxg7 on Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:52 pm
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Thanks Jim.
I have read of people trying the Widex Inteo and I'm sure people have tried the Sonovation products. I understand the frequency compression technology is optional on the Widex Inteo but for everyone who's tried this and also the Sonovation aids, please share your experiences as I am really curious.
Thanks! :)
~Patrick
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Subject : Re: Frequency compression/shifting technology. Opinions?
posted by Hamlet on Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:48 pm
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I am trying the Widex Inteo HA. The "audibility extender" is in my opinion totally worthless. The attempt is to let people (like me) with high frequency loss hear those high pitched sounds by shifting them to a lower frequency within the same harmonic. They should be spending their time working on something that is important and helpful to people rather than trying to help people hear some birdcalls in a bizarre way. I am unfortunately dissatisfied with the Inteos for a number of reasons in addition. With the audibility extender on, I could actually whistle and hear my whistle in harmony -- the high pitch I was hearing without the aid, and the lower (digitially manufactured) pitch I heard through the aid. Kind of cool, but not life-enhancing. And all the birds sounded like geese. So what use is that?? What bird lover wants to hear geese? In fall, yes, the sound of the geese honking is kind of pleasant and heartwarming, but when you are expecting a lark and you hear geese? Why would anyone want that? This is a total waste of electrical engineering talent.
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Subject : Re: Frequency compression/shifting technology. Opinions?
posted by alienxg7 on Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:09 am
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Hi,
Thank you for your opinion. I am curious though that perhaps what you are describing is part of the "adaptation" process that people have to go through when trying such a technology - meaning sounds end up not sounding normal at first but after a person adapts in 6 months, a year, or whenever, the technology is positive. Like, with a cochlear implant, people's ears have to learn how to hear static correctly as sound and this takes time but the ear learns and adapts to it.
So, I'm wondering what the long-term would be in terms of the ear relearning how to perceive sound.
~Patrick
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Subject : Re: Frequency compression/shifting technology. Opinions?
posted by Audibill on Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:28 pm
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The Sonovation product compresses sound. We've had luck with this product for a select pt. population - and conducted a bit of research on it as well... but it appears to work only for people who really need it. It does not sound natural. The S sound sounds a bit like an F sound, in my opinion... but it is audible. And people can learn to use these altered speech cues to good benefit. But there is a learning curve. It takes getting used to... significant adaptation... gradual tunings are best. Again, most people won't want to go through that adaptation process unless it is very necessary in terms of really bad high frequency hearing loss.
The Widex product, on the other hand, appears to take a high pitch region and lay it on top of a lower pitch region. I think it is a better, more sophisticated hearing aid, but I haven't had as much experience with this particular feature. They describe it as an improvement on the Sonavation transposition, but its always wise to be skeptical until we get some additional reviews. So far they have not made any claims of improved speech perception, choosing instead to describe it in terms of improved perception of birds. This is at least an honest claim for now. They're still conducting studies on whether it will help with speech perception, so it's wait and see.
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Subject : Re: Frequency compression/shifting technology. Opinions?
posted by Hamlet on Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:23 pm
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Thank you. I hear what you're saying. I will not be spending six months with this hearing aid, so I won't know whether I would ever enjoy hearing birds all sounding like geese. It's very very hard for me to imagine that would be the case. It's also very clear that I don't need this for speech. With amplification I am able to hear the s, f, th, and ch sounds okay, without shifting them to a lower frequency. In addition, it's hard to imagine how anyone would really need this feature for speech, unless they simply had no hearing in the high frequencies whatsoever.
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Subject : Re: Sonovation Nano Xp aids with DFC (digital frequency compression)...
posted by kooch on Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:53 pm
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I trialed a pair of these a year ago... 10 year old DFC technology installed on obscenely overpriced mid-range conventional aids (obsolete Gennum chip, Toccata platform)...
When the DFC is operating properly, you think you're talking with Daffy Duck... the phonemes and sibilants are bouncing off your face, you want to wipe the speaker's spittle off your nose...
Unfortunately, the aids always went out of adjustment after an hour or less...
After a year of heavy thought, I have developed a foolproof method for determining if you are going to be satisfied with Sonovation products:
1. Call Sonovation's audie dept., and have them recommend two or three audies, within a reasonable distance of where you live, who are experienced in fitting Sonovation aids.
2. Visit all of the Sonovation recommended audies, see if they actually have the Sonovation aids and cables and Hi-Pro equivalent box in their offices (probably not.)... Ask them this question: "If you could fit me with any aids, including Sonovation aids, what aids would you recommend?
Betcha none of them says Sonovation...
k
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Subject : Re: Sonovation Nano Xp aids with DFC (digital frequency compression)...
posted by Audibill on Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:05 am
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Our facility is one that has a lot of experience with the Sonnovation product, and you definately need to go somewhere that has experience with this aid. It will require frequent adjustment and acclimatization. But I think there's a lot of truth to the statements made by Kooch. I find that the hearing aid itself, other than the compression technology, is getting a little long in the tooth. And people do sound like Daffy Duck.
That being said, this is a niche product. I rarely recommend it. But for a select few individuals, it can be a Godsend. I would only recommend it for someone with aidable hearing out to, say, 1-1.5 kHz, with a sharp drop to little/no hearing for higher frequencies. I know one lady in particular who swears by them, as it is the only way she can function in daily life, regardless of the Daffy Duck quality. For most people, however, I would stay away from frequency compression.... or use as low a compression ratio as possible to retain natural sounding speech.
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Subject : Re: Question for Audibill
posted by kooch on Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:29 pm
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Is AVR (Sonovation's parent Israeli company) still holding a valid patent for the DFC process? Is Widex a licensee of AVR, when they utilize their version of DFC in their Inteo models?
Inquiring minds want to know... <grin>
kooch
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Subject : Re: Question for Audibill
posted by Audibill on Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:34 pm
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Good question, Kooch. Unfortunately your question demonstrates that you already know more than I do. But I would venture to guess that the different way Widex processes the frequency compression helps them to circumvent any patents. That's just me theorizing of course.
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Subject : Re: Responding to Audibill...
posted by kooch on Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:11 am
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> I would only recommend it for someone with aidable hearing out to, say, 1-1.5 kHz, with a sharp drop to little/no hearing for higher frequencies.
Thank you for your informative posts. One reason for my renewed interest in this technology is that you have accurately described my current hearing situation (above), and I'm again at a stage where I'm looking at possible alternate solutions.
My Sonovation Nano Xp trials occurred only a year ago, when I was entirely ignorant of how the dispensing racket functioned... but it already seems to me that my experiences happened in a previous life...
Thank God for posters like jim, Roscoe, Ed, et al., who provided the critical honest information I needed during those first months of searching. There was also one unique audie named 'allen' who actually volunteered helpful information.
You're only the second audie I've encountered on this forum who appears willing to actually share usable information with an HOH like myself, and I thank you for your courtesy.
kooch
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